00:00:00 Introduction and guest Lora Cecere’s background.
00:01:45 Why a career in supply chain is attractive and undervalued.
00:04:32 Supply chain field’s growth and advice for those considering the field.
00:07:10 Key qualities to excel in supply chain, including curiosity.
00:08:59 Key qualities for individuals to excel in supply chain.
00:09:31 The importance of empathy and storytelling in supply chain management.
00:11:02 The need for strong written communication skills in supply chain professionals.
00:13:20 Challenges faced by university graduates entering the field of supply chain.
00:15:34 The role of Excel and programming skills in supply chain management.
00:17:00 The future of supply chain and the value of human intelligence in decision making.
00:19:00 Productivity gains and the importance of problem identification.
00:20:49 Typical day-to-day problems faced by supply chain practitioners.
00:24:00 The value of making daily contributions to improve the company.
00:26:20 Comparing supply chain to other industries and its importance in business.
00:27:55 Choosing the right company for a career in supply chain.
00:30:06 Approaching the job market with a technical background.
00:32:49 Internships and tackling challenging problems.
00:34:25 Embracing failure and taking on difficult tasks.
00:36:01 Developing mentors, managing self, and finding a fulfilling career path.
In a recent episode of Loki TV, Lora Cecere, the founder of Supply Chain Insights, and Joannes Vermorel, the founder of Lokad, discussed the skills needed to succeed in supply chain management, typical challenges faced by practitioners, and advice for young professionals seeking to excel in this field. They agreed that curiosity, influence management, empathy, and storytelling are essential qualities for individuals in the supply chain industry, while written skills are also important. The ability to recognize what constitutes a good decision is more important than the specific tools used to solve problems. Both experts highlighted the importance of pursuing a career in supply chain that aligns with personal values and allows for growth and development.
In this episode of Loki TV, Nicole Zint hosts a discussion with Lora Cecere, the founder of Supply Chain Insights, and Joannes Vermorel, the founder of Lokad, a software company specializing in supply chain optimization. They discuss the skills needed to succeed in supply chain management, the typical challenges faced by practitioners, and advice for young professionals seeking to excel in this field.
Lora Cecere has been an industry analyst for two decades, helping companies understand the questions they should ask in supply chain management. She writes for LinkedIn, Forbes, and her own blog, sharing research globally with companies.
Cecere believes that a career in supply chain management is attractive because it opens many doors and offers continuous learning opportunities. The field requires active thinking, evolves constantly, and allows for significant interaction within a company, ultimately providing a deep understanding of how corporations function.
Vermorel agrees and adds that there is an imbalance between what people think they want and what the world actually needs. In some fields, there is an oversupply of talent, while others, like supply chain management, struggle to find qualified individuals. Supply chain roles are incredibly useful and when supply chains malfunction, people notice the impact on their daily lives, such as shortages of essential goods.
Vermorel and Cecere agree that curiosity is an essential quality for individuals in the supply chain industry, as it helps them learn beyond their immediate role and understand the bigger picture. Cecere emphasizes the importance of influence management, empathy, and storytelling in supply chain roles. She believes that understanding human nature and being able to communicate complex ideas effectively are crucial for both team leaders and members.
Vermorel, however, highlights the importance of written skills, as many young professionals lack the ability to produce concise and effective summaries. He believes that the ability to write clearly and make good use of management’s time is key to success in one’s first job.
When discussing the role of software in supply chain management, Cecere doesn’t believe that Excel or programming skills are the most important. Instead, she thinks that professionals should focus on understanding the right questions to ask and the appropriate techniques to use. She believes that the ability to recognize what constitutes a good decision is more important than the specific tools used to solve problems.
Vermorel agrees, emphasizing that professionals should use computers and automation to multiply their impact in complex supply chain situations. He notes that while mechanization has significantly reduced manpower in areas like warehousing and harbors, there is still much room for improvement in white collar work. Vermorel encourages young professionals to consider how their skills and knowledge can be of value in the long term and to leverage technology to make a greater impact in their roles.
Joannes Vermorel and Lora Cecere agreed on the importance of identifying the right problem to solve in a supply chain. They discussed how without proper understanding of the problem, applying technology could lead to mistakes and damage at scale. Vermorel mentioned the need for a high degree of fluency in programming and technical analysis to abstract away technicalities and focus on the actual problem. Cecere emphasized the importance of interpreting data to understand demand, supply, constraints, feasible alternatives, and aligning resources for planning.
Vermorel also highlighted the distinction between being a “co-processor” of a system and adding creative value to a company. He urged young professionals to strive for a career where their contributions are accretive, resulting in a long-lasting, positive impact on the organization.
Cecere mentioned that understanding supply chain as a complex, non-linear system is crucial for companies to improve performance. Vermorel added that supply chain optimization is essential for managing the complexity of aligning demand, supply, and constraints in modern companies.
To choose the right company to work for in supply chain, Cecere advised reflecting on personal preferences and needs, staying true to oneself, and maintaining a work-life balance. Vermorel, on the other hand, suggested looking for a company that has a clear purpose and is working on challenging problems. He recommended seeking a difficult path that stretches one’s capabilities and avoids tackling problems of limited importance.
Vermorel also mentioned some red flags to watch out for when navigating career choices, such as internships with topics that have been floating around for years, as these projects are likely of secondary importance. Both experts highlighted the importance of pursuing a career in supply chain that aligns with personal values and allows for growth and development.
They discussed the challenges and advice for young professionals with Joannes Vermorel, the founder of Lokad, a supply chain optimization software company, and Lora Cecere, the founder of Supply Chain Insights, an expert industry analyst with over 35 years of experience.
Vermorel emphasizes that young professionals should not shy away from tackling difficult problems. Instead of focusing on secondary issues, they should take on challenges that others in the company may avoid due to their complexity. Sharing his own experience, Vermorel recalls how he approached one of France’s top CEOs as a 20-year-old student, asking about the company’s biggest problem and offering to help. He believes that young professionals should not be afraid of failure and should pursue tasks that seem almost impossible, as these are the challenges that push them to grow and develop. However, he acknowledges that this advice is best suited for those in situations where they have the luxury of taking risks, such as being financially independent and not facing immediate pressure to earn a specific amount of money.
Lora Cecere, on the other hand, recommends that young professionals seek out mentors and learn from the choices and mistakes of those they admire. She stresses the importance of self-management and staying true to one’s personal values, even when faced with difficult decisions. Cecere disagrees with the notion that technical people cannot develop interpersonal skills and maintain a strong sense of self. She believes that everyone has strengths and weaknesses, but managing oneself effectively can lead to personal and professional success.
As the interview concludes, both Vermorel and Cecere emphasize the importance of growth, self-management, and taking on challenging tasks as a means to advance in one’s career. They encourage young professionals to seek out mentors, learn from the experiences of others, and embrace opportunities for personal and professional development.
Nicole Zint: Hello and welcome to today’s episode of lokad TV, where we are joined by Lora Cecere, the founder of Supply Chain Insights, to discuss how to start a career in supply chain. The topics that we will cover today are: what skills are really key to succeed in this field, what are the typical challenges that a supply chain practitioner is dealing with, and finally, what advice can we give to young professionals seeking to excel in this career.
So as always, Lora, we would like to kick things off with having a brief introduction about our guest. Can you start by telling us a little bit about yourself?
Lora Cecere: My name is Lora Cecere. I’ve been an industry analyst in the space for two decades, and an analyst helps companies to understand the questions they should ask. I don’t call myself a consultant because I consider consultants as knowing all the answers. So, I do research, probe, and try to get at truths in the supply chain. I write for LinkedIn, Forbes, and on my blog, and I share research globally with companies.
Nicole Zint: Awesome, thank you so much, Lora, for joining us. We’re really excited to hear your insights and your advice, which is so valuable for everyone watching. Let’s start with the first question: why is a career in supply chain such an attractive opportunity for people?
Lora Cecere: I think a career in supply chain is exciting because it opens many doors, and many fun doors. I can’t imagine having a position where I can’t think, interact, and learn. The supply chain offers all three of those. You need active thinking, it’s always evolving, and it gives you a lot of great interaction with the company to really understand how corporations work.
Nicole Zint: Joannes, do you agree with that?
Joannes Vermorel: Yes, I would maybe further add that the way I see it, having been teaching for seven years at university, is that there is an incredible imbalance between what people think they want and what the world actually needs. In some fields, you have armies of incredibly talented people who are all fighting for the same jobs and opportunities. I think the most extreme example is probably being part of a team developing video games, where it’s very frequent that you have 200 super talented applicants for every single position.
On the other hand, there are jobs that are incredibly useful, and I believe supply chain is part of that, where companies are really struggling to find talent. When I say that supply chains are incredibly useful, it’s not a metaphor. As soon as supply chains start to dysfunction, people go crazy because suddenly there is no more toilet paper in the supermarket, and suddenly what they completely take for granted in their daily life ends up missing.
So, I see a certain disconnect, and I believe that for people who want to do good and also want a path where there will be plenty of opportunity, where if they are talented, they have a chance to succeed because they are not naturally fighting with an enormous army of super talented people who are competing for just a few spots, I believe supply chain is a very competitive proposition. There are tons of things to be done, but the fact that it’s also not as widely recognized as other fields makes it an interesting choice.
Nicole Zint: I think something of key interest for young people is supply chain. It’s quite undervalued in general. People don’t realize how important it is. It’s pretty valued, but compared to the overall magnitude of the changes, it is very undervalued. lora, do you agree that supply chain is not as popular as it should be, as people don’t really realize how impactful it is?
Lora Cecere: I think it has evolved to be more popular in my career. I think there’ll be a 15 percent shortage of people to fill positions by the end of the next decade, and I think it will become more popular as people better understand it. One of the issues is supply chains are really very new. The concept of supply chain first started in 1982 as a way to look at source, make, and deliver together, and we’re still catching up with that as a discipline. It’s not as well established as marketing, finance, or managerial accounting. It means different things to different parts of the world and different universities, so I think that we’re still in evolution. But I think it’s very exciting, and it pays well. The challenges are exciting, it gives a lot of opportunity for people to grow, and I think over the next decade, we will have a more equalizing effect as people get to understand the greater opportunities in supply chain. So it’s definitely a growing trend in popularity that we’ve seen in recent years.
Nicole Zint: And for young professionals who are just fresh out of college, very ambitious individuals who are considering starting a career in this field, lora, what would be your advice for people watching who are thinking about this exact question?
Lora Cecere: If people are interested in supply chain as a career, my recommendation is that they are naturally curious, they listen, they build great talent to tell stories, influence management, and they’ve got good math and pattern recognition skills. It really takes the combination of those human elements of active listening and influence management along with mathematical problem-solving skills to make someone great. So, I would encourage people to get diverse experiences and to always stay naturally curious and ask why.
Nicole Zint: Joannes, would you like to add something to that?
Joannes Vermorel: Actually, I’m very aligned with lora, and curiosity is key. More specifically, what I observed among people who have just started their career is that they don’t frequently pay enough attention to their surroundings. You see, at university, they have learned to be curious about specific types of curiosities, such as mostly of the technical kind – more mathematical theorems, more programming languages, more theories. Those are important, but they are, in nature, more of the same compared to what they were doing when they were studying. But when they join their company for their first job or second job, they don’t pay very frequently nearly as much attention to what the company is actually doing.
Nicole Zint: What is the purpose of the supply chain? Why are things done the way they are done?
Joannes Vermorel: I often ask very blunt questions, not necessarily to challenge management but just to learn more. What I frequently observe is that young engineers or people who have recently graduated often haven’t really learned anything besides being a cog in a very specific, narrow position. My advice would be to take opportunities to learn extensively and be curious way beyond just what it takes to do what you’re hired to do. At the beginning, especially in a large organization, you’re just a tiny cog in a very big machine. But if you want to grow and be very useful, you need to know the bigger machines and not just the few parts which drive your day-to-day interaction within the company.
Nicole Zint: Besides curiosity, are there any other key qualities for individuals within the supply chain that would allow them to excel? To what extent are these acquired throughout your career, or are there some qualities that you’re just born with that make you great for supply chain?
Lora Cecere: I think influence management, empathy, the ability to listen and learn, and storytelling are key qualities. I see a lot of wonderful people with great mathematical skills and intuition, but they can’t really convince others on direction and how to make better decisions. They’re not sensitive to the fact that people in corporations have their own motivations, personalities, and drivers. They’re not observing and listening to the human nature of the organization. Supply chains are made up of lots of individuals who have their own agendas and perspectives. Being sensitive, observing, and being empathetic is essential. I find that the best way to drive alignment is through telling stories and humor, and by aligning to those motivations and managing that personal element of the individual within the supply chain. These leadership skills are important in supply chain to drive your team forward.
Nicole Zint: So it’s not just about leading a team, but also being a good team member?
Lora Cecere: Exactly. Often, I find that these really bright mathematical minds don’t have the ability to take the math or the output from engines and put it into a compelling story to drive action. Usually, these people aren’t leading the team; they’re a member of the team. They are frustrated because other people can’t see what they see. The ability to package insights in a way that can be understood and acted upon is crucial.
Nicole Zint: Absorbed by an organization through influence management and building relationships, telling stories, laughing, and a little humor, it’s very important to be able to manage the human elements of the interaction as a team member, not just as a leader. Joannes, what do you think about these skills, and what are you looking for?
Joannes Vermorel: Yes, I think, again, I hope I wouldn’t be exactly like Lora on every single question, but I’m pretty aligned with her, maybe with a European slant. My take is that where I see young people out of university most lacking, and I’m mostly dealing with people that have more of a technical background, is in written skills. Typically, the problem is not to be able to tell a story but to be able to tell anything at all in written form, in a way that is very concise and to the point. It is always a struggle, and I’m not sure why, but apparently, universities manage to produce people with five years of actual university experience who can’t do a one-page summary that makes sense of a situation, even a situation that is not necessarily super complicated.
And I believe that this is probably one of the biggest weaknesses of the current educational system is that it doesn’t really emphasize that. I’m not saying that you can train people to have great empathy or to increase their skill at understanding what other people are saying, etc. I’m not sure that those skills can be trained. I mean, obviously, you can train to understand more, but can you be trained so that you understand faster? I’m not absolutely sure. And the same thing about telling stories: I’m not sure if you can actually train people to tell great stories. However, when it comes to actually training people so that they can write a memo of one page or three pages or five pages and be entirely to the point, following things like the inverted pyramid style where you start with the very important conclusions and then gradually grow into the fine print of the discussion, that is very much a skill that can be acquired.
In environments like supply chains that are incredibly complex, where it’s very easy to be distracted by thousands of details, I believe that this capacity to be able to put things in writing, in ways that are easy to grasp and that make good use of the time of upper management, is important. As Lora pointed out, you don’t start as a manager of a team; you start as a team member, and your first mission is probably to make sure that you make good use of the time of your boss and even more of the boss of your boss. Being able to have those written productions that make excellent use of the time of your management is one of the key ingredients, I believe.
Nicole Zint: Really help to make a difference in whether you succeed in your first one or two job positions.
Joannes Vermorel: Fair enough. We also see this trend that software is now increasingly a larger part of a supply chain practitioner’s daily tasks at work. So, when it comes to Excel, which is very popular for solving supply chain problems, and just generally programming, Lora, in your opinion, what is more important of a skill to have for supply chain practitioners: Excel skills or programming skills?
Lora Cecere: I don’t think either is where I would start. I think it’s more important to be able to answer what is the question we’re trying to solve and what is the right technique. For example, 93% of companies will use Excel, but Excel really can’t help us with variability to the degree we need. Excel really can’t help us with simulation to test a feasible plan. So, I think we need to first start with what is the right question and what is the right technique, and then how do I know if I have a good decision. I don’t think that I would frame the question in the way that you have framed it, but I find that so many times people get lost in the solve without really saying what is the right question to ask and what does good look like.
Nicole Zint: I think that’s a really interesting take, especially mentioning that we want to find what decisions we actually have to take and what problems we are actually solving. Joannes, we’ve discussed with you a lot that people focus too much on a solution without really focusing on why we are solving this problem in the first place.
Joannes Vermorel: Absolutely. And here again, my take on that would be, when I’m trying to teach anything to a young audience, I’ve been teaching for a couple of years at university, I’m thinking: what will still be of value 40 years from now? The way I approach computers and all those smart automations is that, fundamentally, it’s a way to multiply human intelligence. You have your own intelligence, and with a machine, you can do a lot more. When we are talking about supply chains, these things are very complex, and if you can use machines to multiply your impact, then you can obviously do a much greater service to the company, and in return, the company will most likely be paying you a lot more.
So as far as multiplying your mechanical output, that’s what a forklift is for. I think we are pretty far down the path of mechanization. There are tons of warehouses that are extensively automated. On this path, I would say we are quite far down, with tons of progress ahead, but I would say we have already done the bulk of the mechanization. If we were to compare, for example, how many people you have in harbors to unload one metric ton of merchandise, we have already pretty much cut down the amount of manpower by a factor of 1000 compared to where it was a century ago. Fast forward when it comes to white-collar work, I don’t think
Nicole Zint: Are we anywhere close in terms of productivity gains?
Joannes Vermorel: There are gigantic sources of productivity, and I agree with Lora that if you don’t know which question you’re going to answer, then the technique just lets you go faster, but you can go faster in the wrong direction. That becomes a very big mistake because then suddenly you have the tools to do more, but if you do more and it’s the wrong solution that you’re bringing to the company, you’re just going to do damage at scale. In the past, you would be doing the wrong thing on a much smaller scale, so I completely agree with the requirement of really identifying if it’s a problem worth being solved.
But then I have another twist. Until people have a very high degree of fluency in programming and technical analysis, they tend to feel completely buried under just the mere technicalities. What I’ve witnessed is that it takes people who have really mastered those things to entirely detach themselves from the technicalities, so they can actually look at the problem. That’s why, based on my casual observation at Lokad, my own recipe is that if the people who are supposed to solve those problems have a tremendous command over programming, they can abstract away the programming so they can have enough mental bandwidth to really struggle with the problem while remaining confident in their ability to face whatever challenge they encounter.
Otherwise, if you do not have enough technical skills or confidence in your capacity to acquire them, people typically jump on the solution that looks easy enough to be tackled. Instead of trying to approach the very difficult but key problem of the company, they choose other problems that look easier, just because it feels like it’s the only thing they can do. Here lies the sort of problem where, instead of saying, “I have a very difficult problem; let’s try to do something approximate to solve it,” you devolve into something that is not even the problem facing your company. But at least you have a solution, and then you end up with the sort of “solution looking for a problem” type of situation.
Nicole Zint: Speaking of problems, what are the typical problems that supply chain practitioners deal with every day? For people watching who are curious to have an understanding of what they would have to deal with.
Lora Cecere: The question of what the typical day-to-day problems that someone entering the supply chain encounters really depends upon the role. But it typically involves the interpretation of data to understand what demand and supply are, what the constraints are, what the feasible alternatives are, and then how to align resources.
Nicole Zint: What can be understood about demand and demand patterns? How do supply chains drive supply and improve reliability? Are the core concepts similar across logistics, manufacturing, and distribution?
Lora Cecere: Yes, the core concepts are similar, but they’ll look slightly different in logistics than in manufacturing and distribution. It’s all about understanding demand patterns, driving supply, improving reliability, and figuring out the best output.
Joannes Vermorel: Absolutely, I agree with Lora. The reason why supply chain concepts came so late, in the 90s, is that it took a certain degree of complexity for this vision to crystallize. When you have very complex companies, the alignment of all those forces like demand, supply, and so on becomes very complex and requires specific skills.
The specific twist that I would add is that when you want to balance supply and demand with all the constraints, you should consider whether the company is treating you like a co-processor of the system or if you’re actually adding value every single day to the company. Many companies assign planners a specific list of SKUs and expect them to go routinely through them. When you do that, fundamentally, you’re a human co-processor of the system. But if you try to find a way to make the numerical recipes better every day and let the system operate for you, then your value becomes very significant.
For people joining the workforce now, it’s important to make your contribution accretive. By improving the company every day, you leave behind a productive asset that creates value whether you’re doing anything or not. Compare that to someone who does the same job in a different way, without leaving a legacy or a productive asset behind. That’s the difference between work that is consumed and work that is invested. My perspective, which is influenced by my software background, is that if you can make your work invested, you’ll be much more valuable.
Nicole Zint: Joannes, can you explain the concept of supply chain performance and how it impacts a company’s overall performance?
Joannes Vermorel: When you improve supply chain performance through better optimization and contribution aggregation, you can have a 10x impact in terms of economics on the company.
Nicole Zint: Very interesting take there, Joannes. In general, we mentioned earlier that supply chains are often undervalued and most people don’t realize how competitively important they are. Lora, how important is supply chain performance for a business, and how involved should a CEO or founder be with their supply chain operations?
Lora Cecere: The concept of supply chain is a complex, non-linear system that is pervasive throughout the organization and not well understood. Trade-offs in one function can affect the entire system, and most people can’t look at the supply chain holistically. It doesn’t necessarily mean that CEOs or founders need to be doing supply chain activities or be in a supply chain function, but when they understand supply chain as a fabric in a non-linear complex system, they can greatly improve performance.
Nicole Zint: When it comes to young people starting their careers or those already building their career in supply chain and looking for a change, how does one choose the right company to work for in supply chain?
Lora Cecere: I don’t think it’s a difficult question. I encourage people to go to a quiet space, like a coffee shop, and have a moment to write down what’s important to them. Think about the characteristics of a job that would make it truly wonderful for them. For example, I need to be thinking and learning, interacting with people who are questioning and driving forward, and avoiding the mundane. Different people have different job characteristics that they like. Write down what you need in a job, such as work-life balance or location, and what would make a job not okay for you. During the interview process, make it a two-way conversation and stay centered on the things that are important to you. Red flag anything that won’t make the job a success, and be true to your heart. Life is too long to work in a job, career, or company that you don’t like. We need to try to make it fun and create the right win-win work-life balance.
Nicole Zint: Joannes, do you have anything to add to that?
Joannes Vermorel: I agree with Lora’s perspective. My take is a bit different, but my highly technical background might influence my viewpoint.
Nicole Zint: In my own experience, I found that among my students with a very technical background, their introspection skills tend to be fairly poor. So, when they try to figure out what they really like in life, they have no clue, or they come up with fantasies that are completely disconnected from reality. My suggestion to students is to try to identify a company where what they’re trying to achieve really makes sense, and where you can see yourself potentially dedicating time. Is it something where you can see yourself on a journey of doing something that actually makes sense? Because again, there are many people who have fantasies about what would be good or bad for them, but they just don’t know.
Joannes Vermorel: In Europe, it is a common problem for young people to reach the age of 23 and remain almost entirely ignorant of what it’s like to be part of the economic workforce, as opposed to just being a student. My suggestion is to really seek contact and seek something that is going to be very difficult. Don’t go for the easy path; go for the thing that is at the limit of your capabilities. I often see people tackling problems that are probably not worth chasing. Large companies have thousands of pet projects that are of limited importance.
Nicole Zint: Are there any red flags to watch out for or other particular red flags for people trying to navigate this?
Joannes Vermorel: To illustrate my point, let’s say there is an internship with a topic that has been floating around for two years. Most likely, it is something of absolutely secondary importance. If the problem proposed to be addressed through this internship had any real importance, it would have been tackled two years ago. So if it’s floating in the air, it is most likely unimportant. People would be surprised how frequently there are plenty of these trivial problems, and usually, when people are entering the workforce, they are just spoon-fed these problems of secondary importance. They should, on the contrary, try to tackle problems that are very frequently so difficult that nobody in the company even dares to tackle them.
Nicole Zint: I had a conversation with a CEO who was part of the top 40 largest CEOs in France, and even though I was a 20-year-old student, I asked this person what the biggest problem their business was facing and how I could help.
Joannes Vermorel: To tackle the problem, it’s important to face very challenging situations. If you’re not afraid of failing, you’re not trying something hard enough. When you enter the workforce, things should look almost impossible and brutally challenging. I’m addressing people who are young, healthy, and financially independent, in a situation where they have the luxury of taking risks. I’m not talking about someone who is 20 years old and already has three children. I’m talking about the typical Western situation where you’re in your 20s, your parents are independent, and you can live poorly as long as you’re willing to. There’s no urgent pressure to earn a specific amount of money, and if you fail, it’s not the end of the world.
Nicole Zint: I want to ask you the last question: what advice would you give to young professionals watching now, and if there was ever anything you would have done differently in your career? Joannes, I’m sure you have some examples too.
Lora Cecere: My advice would be to try to develop mentors, look for people you admire, and ask yourself why you admire them. Try to understand the choices and mistakes they made. You need to go on a path of managing self, understanding what your true north is, and following your heart. I disagree a little with the point that technical people don’t have the ability to build interpersonal skills and have heart. Sometimes, people’s strengths are also their weaknesses, but if they learn to manage themselves, they’ll be in a much better place. At the end of the day, we all need to feel like we contribute, that we’re learning, and that it’s a good place for us to be, which requires us to manage self.
Nicole Zint: Thank you so much, Lora, for sharing this valuable advice to everyone watching, and thank you so much for your time joining us here today. Thank you for watching, and see you next week.